Why Rank is hurting the community and why we should boycott groups that ask for it...

[Zhou Feng]

Originally Posted by Guizzy

I've been seeing all these threads about IWAY or other FotM, and I've admit to participating to many of them. But the result is always the same: a group of person defends IWAY (or FotM) saying it's beatable, and another group discrediting it saying it's too prevalent. But few have approached the real reason behind all these problems: rank!

You see; rank is often used as a measure for groups to weed out bad players. It has been somewhat useful in the past, before the problems that are now rampant appeared. Now, it only splits the community and stifles innovation. (Wow; it sounds as if I'm about to start a lecture on patents!)

Let's take example of any new player to the tombs. He arrives into American District 3, and all he sees are "GLF Order Necro for IWAY", "Rank 4+ IWAY W/Mo LFG". He doesn't have much rank, so he does not manage to get into any group there. He changes districts and instantly gets picked by a blind invite PUG. They don't even get past the unworthy. No rank. He gets kicked from group (or group disbands by itself), and he gets into another random blind invite. These ones are lucky and get past the unworthy. He gets to fight against a IWAY team. He loses; still no rank. Noticed anything? Yeah, I've never said he was a bad player.

It just turned out he was only picked by bad groups. Why? BECAUSE HE HAS NO RANK! Of course, IWAY groups are not really good by themselves. But they require a minimum amount of synergy to beat. It's not a matter of being "skilled" by yourself. It's a matter of teamplay. The kind of teamplay groups that usually take Rank 0s without asking DO NOT HAVE!

Of course; he could start playing IWAY to get some fame, but keep in mind this is not the way the game was supposed to be played. Groups are supposed to be diverse and there are supposed to be experimentation with skill builds. If we allow a "meta-game" concern such as fame dictate the way we play; we will on long-term kill the community.

So I call for a boycott of groups that ask for rank before invite. There is a much better way to get good players: just ask questions about what they do and (more importantly) why they do it. If he can't answer correctly but seem a decently intelligent person; you can always give some friendly and non-condescending advice. A rank 0 with a good understanding of his build is much better than a rank 4 who has been playing exclusively IWAY up until recently. It's short, and you will get much better players.

And if anyone at ArenaNet sees this thread. Please think about what Rank does to the community. Maybe you'll find it's not worth it.

I might agree... to some extent. The diffrence beeing that Rank should not be eliminated but instead Arena players might be able to buy Ranks at high Faction cost... why? I myself an Arena player almost exclusively (or until the IWAY fashion dies off) and I have around 50k Faction earned during my time of combat there, perhaps an easy feat to some... but when its from Competition Arenas with quite a decent amount of faction rewards from Teams (random is more of a challenge) and you are the at times the only healer trying to keep yourself alive and some dimwitts who aren't good at offense or defending yer arse well its not such a simple feat after all.

I could go IWAY but that would be so cheap and cheesy IF Im going to get my fame I want to do it right... and with my healer or warrior or necro and no I wont run an IWAY necro.

This comes to the situation you mentioned unless you have rank or are a healer you dont get into good groups. But Im betting the IWAY fashion is bout to die off and soemthing like Necro FOC Spikers and Ranger Int Spikers will be the new thing (hopefully), in the meantime I sure wish Arenas would allow some Rank gain after so many Arena fights but oh well... you can't have everything.

EDIT
to Sister: No not anymore seeing as it "filters" me (and other good players) because I have no "rank" thus catalogued as a "noob" yet Guilds or Organized PUGs with ts/vent who have picked me up haven't whined or argued about my healing prowess and I still get picked up again. Except most of me mates are also tired of IWAY too and well hit Comp Arenas too

By the way to the OP Ill add your name so whenever you need a healer or a warrior tank you can bug me up. My necro isnt 100% feasible yet I still need to practice the FOC effects. Oh and Sister Im adding you too. :P

[Knight of Eternal Darknes]

there not gonna take away fame and rank if they did, whats gonna stop people from just saying there experience in tombs? you'll get crappy ass noobs who don't know shit and mostly the only people you'll be getting anywhere with is your guild members and by having these stupid people in your groups your not going to be able to run the more complex of groups

[Sister Rosette]

Originally Posted by Guizzy

Stuff

Okay, now think about it from this perspective.

They ask for Rank # and up. This eliminates the need for lengthy questioning.
Everyone knows what they're getting into when they join. You don't need to
hold someone's hand through how IWAY works. You distinguish which nec is
gonna be tainted and which is gonna be order and you go.

Questioning someone all day is fine and dandy until we're only 10 minutes
away from losing favor to Korea. Then you ask for #+ rank people, get em',
and the shit is on.

[Fantus]

Originally Posted by Knight of Eternal Darknes

there not gonna take away fame and rank if they did, whats gonna stop people from just saying there experience in tombs? you'll get crappy ass noobs who don't know shit and mostly the only people you'll be getting anywhere with is your guild members and by having these stupid people in your groups your not going to be able to run the more complex of groups

Yes, without rank it would be the same situation as when forming a PvE group...

They don't need to take rank away, the problem is NOT the rank by itself, but the people who (mis)use it as the only indicator to judge people's PvP skills. I don't really think rank was meant to do that. If it was, you would probably get rank awards for doing GvG and Arenas, too.

[Guizzy]

No one really reads what I say, don't they?
Did I say 10 minutes of questionning?
2 questions has always been enough.

"What do you do?"
"How do you do it?"

That's it.

And if you really think rank removes the need for organisation, then you must fail often indeed! Unless you are playing a precise FotM (which I've precisely put out of the conversation as soon as the original post), your players NEED to know what everyone will be doing, and what is expected of them.

Try it; you must have a lot of free time to gain all that fame, so use that copious free time to try what I've said. Two questions (you might want to get more specific according to role you are filling) before inviting, no rank asking and no precise group build (Balanced group). Don't demand that they run specific skills; ask roles, not builds. Of course; be honest and don't jump on every dumbass just to try to prove me wrong. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

there not gonna take away fame and rank if they did, whats gonna stop people from just saying there experience in tombs? you'll get crappy ass noobs who don't know shit and mostly the only people you'll be getting anywhere with is your guild members and by having these stupid people in your groups your not going to be able to run the more complex of groups

Please, read the posts in the thread before posting. If you are not able to distinguish "crappy ass noobs" with a few questions, you are the most pathetic leader I've ever seen and should never, ever go remotely close to a leading position.

[Sister Rosette]

You make a good point Guizzy, and I suppose I should have elaborated more.
I was referring to 'Specific FoTM' Rank #+

You shouldn't have to ask a W/R IWAY with rank 3+ what skills they are
packing.

[Orochim4ru]

thought id show them im not a newb and im not useless, so I used met shower and fire storm

You used firestorm. Don't ask to get into R6+ groups with that.

[Guizzy]

Indeed; horrible answers might ensue if that was needed.
"I R a BEAST MASTAAA"

It's specifically to fight rampant FotM'ing that I'm suggesting rank be removed.

You used firestorm. Don't ask to get into R6+ groups with that.

You haven't read enough... He used firestorm as a monk!
Which makes me believe this is a joke.

[tomcruisejr]

rank prevents new talents with lotsa potentials to break in through the pvp scene and makes some (bad) pvpers gain more fame.

/rank = HoH's answer to UW's globs of ectoplasm.

[Orochim4ru]

You haven't read enough... He used firestorm as a monk!
Which makes me believe this is a joke.

He didn't specify that it was a monk. I'm nice enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.

rank prevents new talents with lotsa potentials to break in through the pvp scene and makes some (bad) pvpers gain more fame.

Potential means you could become good, not that you ARE good. Top level groups aren't interested in wasting time training people to develop their potential, because those with potential will get better regardless of if we lay down a nice path for them to walk down, or whether they monk for crappy r0 groups in american district 3.

You don't hold halls with pugs. that's a general rule of thumb.

[tomcruisejr]

my point is its bad for the new players. the one who buys the game and installs it for the first time.

and for the pve people who wanna break into the pvp scene.

and for the pvp people who dont wanna wait for a group for 23454 hours.

and for the gvg people who thought about doing tombs on their own.

that's why FOTM overpwrd wtf builds are made coz some people belonging to above category wanna get fame. and they jump to the band wagon. and where is the actual skill development if they are just doing the same recipe builds?

rank 6-9 people are just a (elitist) minority in GW. which means they are not the game.

[Guizzy]

Many people ARE good, but are kept down because of rank. How can they prove it? They don't play in reasonably good groups because of rank, so they don't get any rank!

If no one wants to give them a chance to GAIN that rank because "You don't hold halls with pugs. that's a general rule of thumbs.", the community will die. Again, Rank DOES NOT equal skill. I've said this times after times.

[Orochim4ru]

my point is its bad for the new players. the one who buys the game and installs it for the first time.

and for the pve people who wanna break into the pvp scene.

and for the pvp people who dont wanna wait for a group for 23454 hours.

and for the gvg people who thought about doing tombs on their own.

Kay, so you're basically saying that you want to get all the best players in the game to play with a bunch of people who barely know how to pvp.

Not happening.

Many people ARE good, but are kept down because of rank. How can they prove it? They don't play in reasonably good groups because of rank, so they don't get any rank!

I joined a guild group in Id1 as a rank 2 warder for a euro guild that was starting up. That guild had players that went on to form mental block that i still talk to today. Our little tinkering in tombs led to high end pvp.

Oh wait, does that mean that rank 2 players can get to know each other and play with each other until they get better, and thus form groups together? oh i think they can!

Your suggestion isn't that r0-5 players get recognized: i was in a rank 30 guild at rank 4 because they saw that i was skilled. Now i'm in prav (which i joined at R5, btw, which is equivalent to rank 3 in terms of /rank), and i've been holding halls almost every day.

My personal example proves that rank isn't the sole determining factor in choice, but when we've got 7/8 people waiting to go, we're more likely to call on an available rank 9 than an available rank 3.

When you reach the top, you will have the freedom of choice as well. Until then, stop whining and get some skills (and get vent too. i barely see TS at high end pvp anymore.)

[tomcruisejr]

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Kay, so you're basically saying that you want to get all the best players in the game to play with a bunch of people who barely know how to pvp.

Not happening.

you arent seeing the long term effect coz maybe you're focused getting to rank 25.. hmmmm

here's a preview

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/7...usemote8et.jpg


are you sure that those rank 6-9-25 people are "the best players in the game" ?


sure rank is a fast way of weeding out. no questions about that.

anyhow, hah. :P

[Orochim4ru]

you arent seeing the long term effect

The long term effects are simple: if you aren' rank 3-6-9, play with the people of your rank bracket and find good people to play with. If there are skilled players at R0, which you all claim exist, then find them and make them friends. Since they will party with you most of the time, you can effectively "climb the ladder" with the help of people who are your rank, instead of asking for handouts from top level groups. I know the people from 6-9 are the best players in the game because i PLAY WITH THEM and we WIN HALLS. LOTS. in the past 2 weeks, we've failed to get to halls on only 2 runs, and we've failed to cap halls maybe 4 times out of 15+ runs. Even then, we normally have a dropped player by the time we get to halls, and we still win.

That's skill, not dumb luck. Its not the build either, because our build has been widely copied. Every time we come up against our mirror match, we trounce them, because we're BETTER then they are. Most of our matches to halls turn out to be flawless, and we've never lost a relic run.

I dont' think that's the watermark of a crappy bunch of players. The fact that we repeatedly hold halls against the same groups and players is also telling. At the start of most hoh maps, there's a huge spam of people talking, because we all know each other: elitism? or is it just that we're the elite, and we deserve to hold the elite positions in the game?

[Knight of Eternal Darknes]

it's not that hard to find good pvpers, when i started my first guild i know what you mean about not giving other people a chance to get out there, one of my guild members who usually ran the pvp only did gvg really, and we ended up getting to like rank 55 back then, yeah there is a lot of good pvpers without high rank but why are we gonna take away the fame system because you can't get into these groups, if your good you should be able to start your own group and ask which skills the players are using and just adjust them or keep there skills and give them advise on how to do things if they don't know how, when you talk about being a good pvpers its mainly when to use there skills and because this game ultimately doesn't give you all that much control on how fast you use your skills it's mainly how you use your skills with other ones

[Guizzy]

I know the people from 6-9 are the best players in the game because i PLAY WITH THEM and we WIN HALLS. LOTS. in the past 2 weeks, we've failed to get to halls on only 2 runs, and we've failed to cap halls maybe 4 times out of 15+ runs.

If you know them personally, then you don't need to be asking "Rank 6+" in the chat.

That's skill, not dumb luck. Its not the build either, because our build has been widely copied. Every time we come up against our mirror match, we trounce them, because we're BETTER then they are.

We're not saying you are not good; we're saying you have no idea how good lower rank players can be if they're not forced to be in bad groups.

That's skill, not dumb luck. Its not the build either, because our build has been widely copied. Every time we come up against our mirror match, we trounce them, because we're BETTER then they are.

Look, we never said lower ranked groups are better; they are very rarely organised. Why? Because organised groups discriminate on rank.

Man, really you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

You have not understood a word I've said in all that ridiculously large thread. Read it again.

if your good you should be able to start your own group

Not everyone is a good leader. Not everyone wants to start groups. "Your" rank system serves no one but yourself. It's NOT a way to weed out bad players, and I've proven this time after time that YOU CAN MAKE A MUCH BETTER GROUP BY ASKING QUESTIONS.

Next time someone post here, he better have read the thread before repeating arguments I've disproven time after time after time...



Pro-rank argument: But the ranked players are better!

Anti-rank argument: You have no idea; try unranked in an organised group.

Pro-rank: But they'll be bad!

Anti-rank argument: Try it.

...

----

But I agree on skill usage being the most important part. That said; skill ability does not come with rank. Rank does not even mean experience; as some people never learn. And some people learn very fast. And those people, well, they can't go at their speed because the only groups that will accept to take them are blind invites with fiery dragon sword whammos (complete with Mending and Healing Signet).

I'm doing my part to change that; I make my own groups and am very broad-minded with my invites. I am getting much success (every group I've made that way was only beaten by less than 300-ranked guilds).

What is going on here is that some people are trying to justify what would be easily comparable to marking poor people (as well as putting them into specific "poor" gettho) so that the rich (living inside guarded areas) will be able to avoid living with them. The justification given is exactly the same.

[wsmcasey]

A-net should give you some way to tell people what rank you are if your rank 0-2. It doesn't have to be an emote, but at least maybe you could click on your rank or fame to show a group what level your at. I find it really unfair that I'm a rank 2 and have some experience under my belt now, but I'm still regarded as if I'm rank 0 because I have no way to prove my rank. If rank 3 is the magic number because you can show an emote to prove it, it only makes sense to have some way to prove your rank no matter what your number is.

example:
At 16 years old you can officially get a drivers license, this not only enables you to drive a car, but it all so provides pertinent information to other people. There are many things that you cannot do until you've reached a certain age, and a drivers license is required as general proof that you have reached a competent age of responsibility. Even though you can't legally drink till your 21, you may be 20 years old and far more experienced at handling situations than a 16 year old. In legal situations a 20 year old would be handled differently than a 16 year old as well. Wouldn't it be odd if we were allowed to drive at the age of 16 without a license and no proof of identification, and you didn't officially get a license until the age of 21? There would be a serious lack of structure in our society. Guild Wars lacks structure.

[Knight of Eternal Darknes]

it's not hard to find a good group, but without fame when your running a complex build like, a life deg build with a team 1 player can mess up the whole team against another good group, fame is not the problem with pvp the problem is players being to lazy to do pvp, fame and rank is more about experience the more fame and rank the more experience you have which makes it so you know what these players are doing

[Orochim4ru]

Man, really you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

You have not understood a word I've said in all that ridiculously large thread. Read it again

Incorrrect: you need to stop picking out little isolated fragments of text and responding to them while ignoring the rest of my points.

Look, we never said lower ranked groups are better; they are very rarely organised. Why? Because organised groups discriminate on rank.

Then go form an organized lower ranked group. Its that simple: don't ask to get into the higher ranked groups when you aren't higher ranked. Skill and organization are not directly co-related with rank, so it stands that you should be able to make a perfectly competitive group with rank 0-2s.

Yet no one does, which means that either skill and rank are co-related, or that organization and rank are. If its organization, then a R0 who is a good leader should be able to go and win halls. If its skill, then a R0 who is a good leader will be shut out by virtue of his peers' lack of skill.

If it does turn out to be a matter of skill, then it stands to reason that a higher ranked group would save time by using a) people they know or failing that b) people who are more likely to be skilled. By the heuristic built up above, that means that they would talk to the player about what they're doing, but also ask for rank.

we're saying you have no idea how good lower rank players can be if they're not forced to be in bad groups

Incorrect again. I was a lower ranked player, thus i know exactly how skilled lower ranked players are, because i HAD to play with them to move up. They are, by and large, inferior.

They do not have UAX. They do not know a multitude of builds. They do not have the same reaction times. They do not have the experience. These come with time, and with time they'll gain rank and meet good players in the lower ranks. While they do so, they'll move up and become top-level pvpers as well.

Rank 0 isn't a bottomless pit that you can't work your way out of: just put some time into getting better, and eventually you'll get recognized.

Hint: running iway is not a good way to get known.

just to be completely clear here: go play PvE after you've done high end pvp.